Audio versus video: what is a podcast?
What is a podcast? This episode dives into the evolving definition of podcasting, as we explore how audio content is now intertwined with video, social media, and various platforms. We challenge the traditional notion that podcasts are solely audio delivered through RSS feeds, highlighting how many shows resemble TV productions with their viral video clips. Through conversations with industry professionals Charles Commins and Matt Cheney, we unpack the essence of a podcast, emphasising that it’s about intention - knowing who you're creating for and why. While some believe video enhances engagement, we argue that it shouldn't overshadow the core audio experience that makes podcasts unique. Join us as we navigate this complex landscape and determine what truly defines a podcast in today's media world.
Takeaways:
- Podcasts have evolved from simple audio files to complex content ecosystems that include video.
- The essence of podcasting remains in its audio-first approach, despite the rise of video content.
- Defining a podcast is tricky, as the term now encompasses a variety of formats beyond just audio.
- Creators should focus on their audience's needs and how video can enhance their message, not overshadow it.
Produced by Gareth Davies at The Sound Boutique
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Transcript
What is a podcast?
Speaker A:Once that was an easy question to answer.
Speaker A:A podcast was audio, delivered via rss, available for free and personal, in your ears, on your time.
Speaker A:But that definition is under pressure.
Speaker A:Today, the world of podcasting is filled with reels, cameras, YouTube interviews and high end studio shoots.
Speaker A:Video clips from podcasts go viral before the audio feed even gets noticed.
Speaker A:And some shows now look a lot like tv.
Speaker A:So in this sound session, we're asking the question, what is a podcast?
Speaker A:Welcome to the Sound Session, where creators explore how sound shapes our world and how we shape sound.
Speaker B:Gareth.
Speaker A:I'm Gareth and I'm glad you're here, Soundmaker.
Speaker A:If you enjoy what you hear, head to thesoundsession.uk to find all of our episodes.
Speaker A:And if you'd like to send in your favourite sound, you can also do that via the website.
Speaker A:So at this year's Podcast Show London, I asked a few delegates, what is a podcast?
Speaker A:Here's what they said, starting with podcast producer Drew Toynbee.
Speaker C:From my perspective now, I think that a podcast is content that you can get from online that can be consumed.
Speaker C:Audio only.
Speaker C:That would be my caveat.
Speaker C:I think video can be a nice addition, but if you're going to call it a podcast, I don't want the video to be integral to the experience.
Speaker A:Anoushka and Nicole from Goal Hanger.
Speaker B:I think it's a conversation that's worth listening to, that can also be watched.
Speaker B:Podcast is a conversation that you get to join on the Internet, some of your favorite people.
Speaker A:Mark Asquith, M.D.
Speaker A:of podcast host captivate so to me.
Speaker D:A podcast is a way for you to share whatever you want to share in a way that you want to share it.
Speaker D:And I've used it as therapy in the past, get things off my chest, you know, to articulate things that I've found really difficult to articulate before.
Speaker D:But I've also used it as a way to validate my own thinking, validate my own ideas, find my place in the world, talk about things I enjoy, whether that's Star wars or podcasting or building a business or software as a service or whatever.
Speaker D:So for me, outside of all the technical answers, outside all of the RSS answers, all of that stuff, to me, a podcast is an accessible way for someone who doesn't always feel like they've got a valuable voice to realize that they can share it, and they are valuable in that regard.
Speaker D:So that I think that regardless of where podcasting is or goes, that's always the core of it, and that's what I think a podcast is.
Speaker A:And finally, podcast strategist Kevin Redmond.
Speaker E:I really don't know what a podcast is.
Speaker E:I used to know what a podcast was.
Speaker E:It used to just be an audio information, but these days there's so many different things that come under that podcast umbrella.
Speaker E:I think we need a new word for what a podcast is and what everything else is.
Speaker B:What would that word be?
Speaker E:I don't know, because it can't be an audio book because that's a thing already.
Speaker E:But like a true crime, podcast is not the same as somebody who does a podcast on leadership or on sales technique.
Speaker E:So I don't know.
Speaker E:I think it's a good problem to have because it shows the popularity of podcasts, but it's too broad a term these days, I think.
Speaker A:So what is a podcast really?
Speaker A:To start unpicking that, I turned to someone with firm roots in the audio world, podcast producer Charles Commins.
Speaker A:Charles and I have known each other for a while, and he's someone I trust to bring clarity to complicated questions.
Speaker A:When it comes to defining podcasting, Charles didn't mince his words, but I began, as always, by asking Charles what his favourite sound is.
Speaker A:He gave me two.
Speaker F:So the first one is the ball hitting the back of the net, specifically when it's a Northampton Town player that has caused it to happen in the correct end.
Speaker F:And the eruption of noise that comes is when a goal is scored.
Speaker F:And then the other, it's the noise that I get whenever I upload and finish working on a podcast episode.
Speaker F:Because I've set an automation on my computer.
Speaker F:I'm so, so nerdy.
Speaker F:I have a trello board that lists all the different bits.
Speaker F:And when I move something in one particular board that I have into the done column, I have an automated sound effect, which is of the Tardis from Doctor who.
Speaker F:It's just a tiny little thing that one day I said, wouldn't it be fun if I just did this?
Speaker F:And I created it, I made it happen.
Speaker F:I love it because every time I think to myself, that's another episode in the bag.
Speaker F:It's done.
Speaker A:We moved on to the big question, what is a podcast?
Speaker A:Charles didn't hesitate.
Speaker F:I have always defined podcasts, podcasts, as being on demand audio programming.
Speaker F:That has been what I always said that it was.
Speaker F:Right.
Speaker F: back here to, like, the early: Speaker F:Well, it was a media studies degree with radio production in brackets.
Speaker F:That was like the major Media, part of what I did, and I did my dissertation, actually, on whether the future of sports broadcasting was podcasting or podcasts.
Speaker F:I can't remember if that's the exact title, but that's more or less what it was.
Speaker F:And in a way, I was kind of correct, because these days we've got podcasts like the one that I make by fans who talk about their football team, give their opinion, or, you know, just of any football team.
Speaker F:But you've also got the football clubs themselves doing it, as well as all the major broadcasters, you know, from TalkSport to the BBC, releasing either their shows or creating specialized podcasts on demand for you to go and listen to.
Speaker F:So I have always had it as being audio.
Speaker F:That is what a podcast is.
Speaker A:But what about video?
Speaker A:Surely visuals could add something, reach new people, add new context.
Speaker A:Charles was firm.
Speaker F:While you might be still wearing headphones while you're watching a video, you're now not just concentrating on that particular thing that you're hearing.
Speaker F:You're also using your sight, and therefore you lose a little bit.
Speaker F:There's that whole thing of I do this where I might be watching a video, I might switch off a little bit, and in that moment where I switch off, I'm switching off my ears more than my eyes.
Speaker F:It'll only be for a moment or two, and it'll be fine.
Speaker F:I don't need to rewind because my eyes have actually filled in the gap for me.
Speaker F:Now, you could say that this is an advantage.
Speaker F:This is a positive reason to do video.
Speaker F:But for me, if you're using it and you know that that's what's going to happen potentially, then you're giving people the option of basically switching off and not listening to you anymore.
Speaker F:And I don't see the point in doing that.
Speaker A:To make his point, he drew a rather brilliant parallel from music history.
Speaker F:If you want to watch video, I've got no problem with that.
Speaker F:I love nothing more than sitting down on a Saturday night in front of the telly and popping Doctor who on doesn't matter if it's a new episode or not.
Speaker F:That is my favorite thing to do visually with media.
Speaker F:I've got no issue with you wanting to do that, but I think you should acknowledge the fact that what you're watching is video content.
Speaker F:Go back to when suddenly the music video came on the scene and we were enamored by it.
Speaker F:And don't get me wrong, there was a whole industry created out of it with, like, MTV and all of these channels that you had on the TV to consume music.
Speaker F:But what were people doing?
Speaker F:They were making music first and foremost.
Speaker F:That's what they were doing.
Speaker F:They were writing songs, they were touring, they were pressing albums.
Speaker F:You know, it was brilliant.
Speaker F:It still is.
Speaker F:And that's exactly what they're still doing.
Speaker F:And then what they were doing was to help them promote those songs.
Speaker F:They were then creating a music video for them.
Speaker F:And there are some absolutely iconic music videos, a lot of them made for Queen.
Speaker F:Right, let's get it right straight away.
Speaker F:But not once did Queen go one day into the recording studio and go, do you know, what we need to do is we need to think about the video for this music, for this song that we're going to write today before we've written the song.
Speaker F:Do you know what I really, really fancy getting dressed up as a woman and cleaning the house.
Speaker F:How can we make a song that is about that or will fit that?
Speaker F:Imagine if they'd done it that way round.
Speaker F:And I'm not saying that it's ridiculous to think and to go and make a video first podcast, but I just wonder whether we are just in that phase that we were in back in the sort of 70s and 80s when music videos were the big thing and you had to have one.
Speaker A:He admits the word podcast may already be out of our hands.
Speaker F:I just wonder whether we're in that same sort of space with podcasting now.
Speaker F:Some people are going all out and they are going and making a, you know, a big video with lots of animation on it and lots of different cuts, with lots of different cameras and angles and, you know, they sit in a makeup chair before they actually go in there, not looking at you, Stephen Bartlett and then record.
Speaker F:It is very much, let's make a TV program, but it's not going to be on mainstream TV.
Speaker F:It's going to be on YouTube.
Speaker F:It'll be on Spotify now.
Speaker F:And therefore we need a name for it.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker F:This one works.
Speaker F:Podcasting.
Speaker A:That said, he wasn't dismissive of visuals entirely.
Speaker F:Don't get me wrong, I use YouTube myself.
Speaker F:I watch videos on there.
Speaker F:There's a great channel called Bunch of Amateurs, which is a production company that has followed Dorking Wanderers fc, who are a non league side.
Speaker F:They're currently in the National League south, so they're two divisions below the English Football League.
Speaker F:Each episode is a documentary about one of Dorking Wanderers fixtures.
Speaker F:It has interviews with fans that are at the game.
Speaker F:They've got cameras in the dressing rooms.
Speaker F:You see the team talks happen, you see what happens on the Pitch where the players are warming up and the coaches are sort of stood in the huddle going, he doesn't look on it today.
Speaker F:I might drop him.
Speaker F:I might put him on the bench.
Speaker F:Actually, there is no way that I could only listen to that.
Speaker F:No way.
Speaker F:And it also has essentially the highlights of the match.
Speaker F:It's.
Speaker F:It's brilliant the way that it's been put together.
Speaker F:That's fantastic.
Speaker F:But it is a video.
Speaker F:It is categorically a video.
Speaker F:It does not work in any other format.
Speaker A:And when the theory hits the real world, Charles sees the same patterns.
Speaker F:Repeat clients will come to me and they will say, we want to make a podcast.
Speaker F:And I go, okay, no problem.
Speaker F:What's your budget?
Speaker F:And they say, 2,000 pounds.
Speaker F:And I say, okay, well, we can make, I don't know, however many episodes for that.
Speaker F:No problem at all.
Speaker F:And they go, okay, brilliant.
Speaker F:And then they say, so we'll have.
Speaker F:What will we have out of it at the end?
Speaker F:And I'll go, right, well, you'll have an audio podcast and it will do this, this and this.
Speaker F:And I can maybe give you a clip for each one and a transcript.
Speaker F:And.
Speaker F:And they'll go, oh, is it not going to be on video?
Speaker F:Not for 2,000 pounds, no.
Speaker F:And they say, well, how much would that cost?
Speaker F:And you then tell them, and they then go, oh, right, it's more expensive than I thought it was going to be.
Speaker F:I thought we could do it much cheaper than that.
Speaker F:I can then go, you can.
Speaker F:Let's forget the video.
Speaker A:Charles's answer is clear.
Speaker A:Start with sound.
Speaker A:The rest is optional.
Speaker A:Now let's turn to someone who doesn't just work with audio.
Speaker A:He lives in both worlds.
Speaker A:Matt Cheney is the founder of Cult Media and has spent years producing podcasts, sound design and branded video.
Speaker A:If Charles holds the audio first line, Matt operates at the crossroads of sound and vision.
Speaker A:Again, we started with Matt's favorite sound.
Speaker B:I have this weird love for the sound of the assault rifles from Aliens that really kind of like, oh, just sticks in my head all the time.
Speaker B:One of my favorite noises ever is that machine gun assault rifle that they have.
Speaker B:Amazing special shout out as well to the seismic charge from Star wars as well.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's epic.
Speaker B:That's got, you know, big orchestra bang, and then in real life, the ocean.
Speaker B:Just love the ocean.
Speaker B:I can sit and listen and watch the ocean for hours.
Speaker A:From there, we dug into the question at the heart of this episode.
Speaker A:What is a podcast?
Speaker B:So I am still quite old school in my thinking here.
Speaker B:I consider A podcast, something that is originally distributed for free via rss.
Speaker B:That's kind of where I start with it.
Speaker B:And I think the evolution of that is that we've built these content ecosystems, or I call them content ecosystems, around that product, or whether it starts on YouTube or when it starts on social or even live events.
Speaker B:So the technology has allowed what was originally just on RSS to be distributed on different platforms in different types of media.
Speaker B:So, yeah, a podcast for me is something that primarily is focused to be distributed for free via rss.
Speaker A:That was surprising.
Speaker A:For Matt, the presence of video doesn't break the podcast definition so long as the audio first structure stays intact.
Speaker A:But what does video really bring to the table?
Speaker B:Engagement and connection.
Speaker B:Video is still the number one format medium, shall we say.
Speaker B:Like being able to see someone express how they're feeling, engage with each other.
Speaker B:Laughter, sadness, happiness.
Speaker B:It helps people create these parasocial relationships far quicker by seeing how people respond.
Speaker B:However, caveat that that audio first does leave something open to the imagination, which can create a deeper social connection.
Speaker B:And I think that's been demonstrated a lot with retention and ad intention to buy and things like that.
Speaker B:And then we've seen people straddle YouTube and podcasting to build connection.
Speaker B:Someone like the Sidemen is a good example.
Speaker B:Going from streaming into YouTube and then into podcasts, and then they've all come in and out of that.
Speaker B:The other value add is the video is the genesis content to repurp from.
Speaker B:You know, you struggle to create video footage from audio first unless you use animations and graphics and stuff.
Speaker B:So it's a real challenge.
Speaker B:So if you've got video, then your repurposing is maximized as much as possible, but it doesn't mean it hinges on video being there.
Speaker A:Still, he's quick to point out the traps people fall into when they chase visuals.
Speaker B:Everyone's so worried about the video, they forget about the audio.
Speaker B:And that results in people going to the studios because they can't afford the 4K cameras.
Speaker B:We all need 4K, right?
Speaker B:4K cameras and lighting and the special panels behind you.
Speaker B:I'm being a hypocrite here.
Speaker B:I have a physical space studio in Brighton as well, you know, with the panels and the lights and stuff.
Speaker B:But they go to these studios and let's just say that some of them aren't acoustically well engineered.
Speaker B:And what you're left is three or four people shouting at each other in the corner of a warehouse.
Speaker B:And that creates a really poor audio experience when the audio is ripped because you know My interpretation of a podcast is that there will be RSS distribution that is just weak audio for something that should have an audio focus.
Speaker B:And also I find that forgetting about the audio, people forget about the editing opportunities.
Speaker B:If you're not thinking about audio first, then you're going to find that you can't edit video as tightly as you can audio.
Speaker B:So your audio experience is always going to be compromised unless you keep it at the front of your mind.
Speaker B:When you migrate to video, just moving across is.
Speaker B:That's probably the biggest mistake I see.
Speaker B:Video structure is very different to audio structure.
Speaker B:And this has been demonstrated by people porting things across from audio to video.
Speaker B:Video to audio seconds needs to start.
Speaker B:Give me the visualization of the thing that was in the thumbnail.
Speaker B:And then the first 90 seconds needs to kind of deliver and create a reason to stick around.
Speaker B:Otherwise they're gone.
Speaker B:Whereas podcasting is a bit different.
Speaker B:There's an opportunity to really express what you're going to say in this podcast, why people should stick around.
Speaker B:There's space for longer intros, there's opportunities for dynamic ads, CTAs, calls to action.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:It's a different structure to video.
Speaker B:And that's a real common mistake where I see people just going, oh, I've got a video podcast.
Speaker B:I'll just slap that on rss.
Speaker B:Which is fine, but there might be missing the boat a little bit with better engagement and getting calls to action embedded properly.
Speaker B:And then you've got the practicalities of video framing and composition of video is often overlooked.
Speaker B:And we see this all the time.
Speaker B:I did a YouTube video about this like three or four years ago where, you know, people like just below the frame or you can see right up their nose.
Speaker B:And, you know, this is important.
Speaker B:And people aren't cinematographers, they're not videographers.
Speaker B:You know, they haven't thought about how they're framing their shots.
Speaker B:And then when it comes to repurposing for social media, if you've just got someone's big moon face taking up most of the screen, where are those subtitles going to go?
Speaker B:How are you going to edit it?
Speaker B:And that leads me on to my next point, which is file sizes.
Speaker B:If you're thinking about video, 4K video is roughly 1 gigabyte of data per minute shot.
Speaker B:Now, if you've got three cameras, that's 180 gig of video per episode.
Speaker B:Now you're going to use multiple terabytes of data storage across a series.
Speaker B:And that, yeah, hard drives as cheap as chips.
Speaker B:Now that's fine.
Speaker B:But logistically that is important to think about because if you've got an old computer or you don't have the infrastructure around you, it's just going to do your head in.
Speaker B:And I have clients from the studio in Brighton requesting that we compress everything.
Speaker B:And then they're complaining that it's not 4K.
Speaker B:So that's a real big mistake that leads into kitten support.
Speaker B:People are buying cheap cameras, getting bad results.
Speaker B:People don't have the right support around them.
Speaker B:They don't know how to light.
Speaker B:I have made loads of mistakes with understanding ISOs and frame rates and F stops.
Speaker B:I'm an audio monkey.
Speaker B:That's where I come from.
Speaker B:I like the buttons and the knobs and the loud noises that come out the box.
Speaker B:I love audio cameras are annoying.
Speaker B:I just don't understand them as much as I do with sound.
Speaker B:And, you know, if I'm struggling with that and I've been in media 20 years working in television, I can imagine loads of other people are just pressing go and hoping for the very, very best.
Speaker B:I think the other big one as well, which I think is a rhetoric we've seen from things like the podcast show, is thinking that you can just post to YouTube once you have video and the magic algorithm will sort out all your problems.
Speaker B:Very much not the case.
Speaker B:Retention is not the same on YouTube.
Speaker B:It's not the same as audio.
Speaker B:Discovery means zip if they don't stick around and watch the thing and ideally come back.
Speaker B:So those are those pitfalls that I see at the moment.
Speaker A:So is there a right time to add video or is this pressure making podcasters rethink what they're even making?
Speaker B:If we look at do podcasters feel the pressure of being visual now?
Speaker B:And I kind of say that I think they always have.
Speaker B:It's just that the technology and the equipment wasn't as cheap as it is now and not as many people are saying video podcasts as they were.
Speaker B: And I started a podcast in: Speaker B:You could chart number one as a video podcast on Apple really easily because no one was publishing them.
Speaker B:So this has been around for a long time.
Speaker B:It's just that the technology and the rise of celebrity influencer led content creation podcast, if you call them that, that kind of chat show, sitting on a sofa having a pow wow.
Speaker B:But that's always been there.
Speaker B:Every time we published a podcast before, we had to go and do something visual like post a picture of us or a behind the scenes or do a shout out on a LinkedIn Live or an Instagram.
Speaker B:So we still had, we always had that visual element.
Speaker B:It just wasn't the body of the podcast itself.
Speaker B:We always created this supplementary stuff.
Speaker B:So is it justified?
Speaker B:Yeah, because we, we've always done it.
Speaker B:We just feel obliged to do it for a full hour and a half now down the lens of a camera, which is scary.
Speaker B:But if we look at Diary of a CEO, Call Her Daddy, the rest is politics.
Speaker B:Marc Maron all audio first podcast to get going and then they migrated when it made sense.
Speaker B:And then the biggest person that I want to shout out here is Tim Ferriss.
Speaker B:Tim Ferriss said he didn't do studio based audio podcasts because he needed to be able to access talent wherever they were in the world.
Speaker B:So it was always remote and it was never with video.
Speaker B:And that was to allow him to get the guests that he wanted at the cadence that he wanted.
Speaker B:And I think that's really important for people to realize that if video is going to slow you down, then that's not a positive thing.
Speaker B:And that leads into why you're podcasting.
Speaker B:Is it justified to have video?
Speaker B:If you're brand building, trying to build a network, Are you trying to make multiple revenue streams?
Speaker B:Then, yeah, video probably will support those things.
Speaker B:But you compare it to social media.
Speaker B:Not everyone is a top tier creator, but it doesn't mean brands, businesses, individuals aren't still using social media.
Speaker B:So I think that's the conversation I would have with people where they feel this obligation.
Speaker B:And I'd be like, do you think video's a shortcut?
Speaker B:Because I don't think it.
Speaker B:I don't think it is.
Speaker B:I really don't.
Speaker B:I mean, for repurposing, that's great, but we're only thinking about discovery, and there's loads more steps after discovery to really build an audience.
Speaker A:And when it comes to success stories, Matt's not easily impressed.
Speaker B:I had a real good look online to see if there was anything that was standout.
Speaker B:And I hate to say it, but there weren't really any podcasts that really, really, really needed the visuals.
Speaker B:Which kind of alludes back to my original point at the beginning that RSS and distribution through audio is kind of what makes a thing a podcast.
Speaker B:If you do all the other mediums too, that's banging.
Speaker B:But there's some like, true crime stuff.
Speaker B:And I was looking at some history stuff and some science stuff, and I just realized this is a YouTube channel.
Speaker B:This is a YouTube video the amount of energy and resources going in to really elevate the story.
Speaker B:I noticed that the rest is history of just added in random little images.
Speaker B:But again, they're an audio first podcast and they're just trying to make their way in YouTube.
Speaker B:I think the most successful example is Joe Rogan, more so that he built the content in the longest of long forms ever and then cut it up into mid forms and then that got cut up into short form and all of that was made to be searchable, shareable and engaging.
Speaker B:And I think that's a really good use of building out a fleet of pieces of content that can be everywhere and keep engagement.
Speaker B:You can talk to Downey Jr. About his acting career, but then you can talk to him about drugs and rehab and you put those into two mid form clips.
Speaker B:And the algorithm loves those different levels of search capability.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:He's probably the best example.
Speaker B:But we're not all Joe Rogan.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, we're not.
Speaker B:Andrew Huberman's another one that I like, science based podcast.
Speaker B:He's very good at sort of saying, here's the thing, does he need it?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:But if you are watching on YouTube it is nice to, to see what he's talking about.
Speaker B:And I think those are probably the best examples of people just visually telling you what's there but then showing you for the video.
Speaker B:A caveat as well.
Speaker B:I still don't think people are sitting down to watch YouTube like we used to watch Baywatch and Gladiators on a Saturday night.
Speaker B:I just, I don't think that's there yet.
Speaker B:And then other good uses of video are things that are considered podcasts that were never a podcast in the first place.
Speaker B:Very roundabout, I know, but examples of this are TEDx, TED talks, right?
Speaker B:Huge podcast, listened all over the world.
Speaker B:But it wasn't derived as a podcast.
Speaker B:It wasn't derived as a video, it was derived as a talk to be done in person.
Speaker B:But it sits across all three mediums perfectly.
Speaker B:And then Gary Vaynerchuk is the only sort of individual I can think that does that.
Speaker B:If he thinks something, he just sits down and records it.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's audio, sometimes it's video, sometimes it's a livestream, sometimes it's him talking on stage in Brazil.
Speaker B:Regardless, the audio gets packaged and it gets put out and he's constantly giving that engagement point.
Speaker B:So those are like the three that I think are good examples but don't really.
Speaker B:They don't really need to be video.
Speaker B:They don't.
Speaker B:It's more the discoverability and the audience reach bad examples.
Speaker B:Pretty much every B2B finance business crypto podcast out there where they're just on zoom.
Speaker B:Everyone's got different cameras, nobody's got a microphone.
Speaker B:And they think that publishing to YouTube will solve all their problems.
Speaker B:No, I mean, that's the sad truth of implementing video and not having a real strategy around it.
Speaker B:And I can use one of our own as well as a great example.
Speaker B:Our dear sweet Mark Asquith, overlord and leader of Captivate FM.
Speaker B:The podcast accelerator that Mark did was 5 Minute Mentor and it evolved into more marketing and it evolved into podcast specific.
Speaker B:He had over 100 episodes and he published like a good 70 of them on YouTube with just a static image.
Speaker B:And I know full well that those podcasts got a lot of listens.
Speaker B:They were very accessible, short, sharp.
Speaker B:He kept really concise.
Speaker B:He's a good wordsmith.
Speaker B:He knows what he wants to say and how to say it.
Speaker B:But on YouTube they just didn't do anything like 46 views over three years.
Speaker B:Really struggled.
Speaker B:And then Mark implemented doing them down the barrel of the lens and creating a video component.
Speaker B:But the uplift wasn't maybe worth the squeeze.
Speaker B:I mean, from 46 to 240 views and they're stuck there.
Speaker B:I had a quick look at the analytics and stuff that they get traction and the ones where he's on camera do get more traction.
Speaker B: But was it worth the extra: Speaker B:What he did before wasn't scrappy and poorly produced.
Speaker B:It was well done.
Speaker B:But the ability to get it done was so much easier.
Speaker B:So he's a good example that someone that really tested this and just didn't get the results.
Speaker A:Video might be trending, but accessibility and inclusion go deeper than having a camera on.
Speaker B:Yeah, accessibility because of video.
Speaker B:There is an argument to be made for that, but I, I think we were kind of doing it anyway.
Speaker B:I'll come back to my point about repurposing.
Speaker B: I think a podcast from: Speaker B:They were doing a 500, 600 word blog.
Speaker B:They were creating moments and captions with, with the information on it.
Speaker B:They were accessibility.
Speaker B:I mean, people used to say it was spam, putting stuff everywhere, but I was saying it was just making it accessible because everyone consumes in a different way.
Speaker B:I think a long form podcast.
Speaker B:Video podcast with captions.
Speaker B:It's an ask if you are struggling with your site.
Speaker B:Probably audio first is the way to go, if I'm honest.
Speaker B:But in terms of accessibility, for more people to get access to your content, then yeah, using the video distribution now is another string to the bow, as they say.
Speaker B:The visual cue side of things and enhancing the viewing experience should be part of the show development and a marketing strategy anyway.
Speaker B:So I don't think there's an argument to be like, oh, we'll just do video now because it's more accessible.
Speaker B:Actually, if you think about the cues that will really make that video worth their while.
Speaker B:It's going to take a little bit more resource and time to develop and be like, actually we're going to show this thing on screen now to emphasize our point and we've got to acquire it.
Speaker B:Do we need to license it?
Speaker B:Do I need to draw it myself?
Speaker B:Have I got enough crayons?
Speaker B:Like there's just, there's more to that level of accessibility.
Speaker B:Some of the sign language stuff is interesting.
Speaker B:I had someone reach out to me a couple of years ago and they were looking to try and build some sort of standard where you could have sign language bolted onto your video in the corner like you see in the wee hours of the morning sometimes.
Speaker B:But there's a cost implication to that because we don't have AI sign language people yet.
Speaker A:So what should someone actually ask themselves before hitting record on camera?
Speaker B:So the first three things I would ask them to think about would be one around audience, one around success, and then one around MVP of video.
Speaker B:What's your minimum viable product for video?
Speaker B:So I'll expand on those.
Speaker B:The audience comes in two parts.
Speaker B:What does the audience need want from your content and what is the creative solution to that?
Speaker B:And then think about how you're going to get that audience from discovery to consideration, to engagement, to connection, to advocacy.
Speaker B:Those two things together should sort of allude to what you're going to make if you're going to do a true crime podcast because you've got access to people that are inside prisms and you've got police officers all over here to film.
Speaker B:That will be a nightmare.
Speaker B:But you know, the audience wants to hear this story, then video isn't right.
Speaker B:It just isn't.
Speaker B:Maybe you film social media around it, short form to support it, but that long form video just isn't right.
Speaker B:Whereas if you want to build something that becomes a known household brand name and you want that kind of celebrity style culture around it.
Speaker B:Again, consider where this video is going to exist along that journey from discovery to advocate.
Speaker B:So really think about the audience first, what you're building for the audience.
Speaker B:Does it need video?
Speaker B:If it does, then look at your next point which is what is your measurement of success from this podcast?
Speaker B:Is video worth the investment and aligned to your ultimate goals?
Speaker B:If you want to produce something that yields massive amounts of attention and that attention is going to be commercialized in whatever way you see fit, then video is a very promising thing to do.
Speaker B:It does make sense reaches there.
Speaker B:But if your measurement success for a podcast is to get yourself speaking on stage or to network, or to almost use it as research for a book you want to publish in five years time, or to be the go to person in marketing business, insurance, stage presence, whatever it is, you can use audio first podcasting and get a lot further a lot quicker because of that resource and investment and you know, having to get dressed up and look presentable and then that brings you to what is the minimal viable product for your video.
Speaker B:You can always start scrappy.
Speaker B:I'm not saying people need to go out and I went to the media production show and the guy from Canon was there and he was on stage with the guy from Rode and Rode.
Speaker B:The guy from Road made a great statement.
Speaker B:He's like, oh, we know our audience, we price all of our products to be really competitive.
Speaker B:You know, they're not the most expensive on the market.
Speaker B:And then the guy from Canon just like looked down, he's like, oh, our cinema cameras, a little bit more than that, but they are the best.
Speaker B:It doesn't make sense to invest in that.
Speaker B:So yeah, you can Definitely start scrappy.
Speaker B:100% start scrappy.
Speaker B:That's fine, start cheap, but go on a journey and look at where you're going to get to.
Speaker B:What are the brand values that you want to achieve and the production values you want to achieve?
Speaker B:Because if you start scrappy and it's just a four way zoom call and you stay on that, and if the video first goes the way I think it might over the next three or four years and people start watching more and more on their tellies or on their iPads or just more video presence, if you still look like you're on a Zoom call in 3 years time, don't be surprised that the algorithm isn't going to be very nice to you because it will care about the quality and it will see other stuff that's visually more engaging.
Speaker B:And that would be a shame because you might have great content within there and your production standards might damage you long term if this becomes the way to produce.
Speaker B:So yeah those would be the big three.
Speaker A:Matthew isn't anti video, it's pro purpose.
Speaker A:Add visuals if they help but don't assume they make a podcast better.
Speaker A:That's not how sound works.
Speaker A:So what is a podcast?
Speaker A:Charles says it's audio first chosen, immersive, intimate.
Speaker A:Matt says if it's built around an RSS feed and made to be heard it counts even if there's video.
Speaker A:Maybe it's about intention.
Speaker A:If you know why you're making it, who you're making it for and what you want it to do, then you're making a podcast whether there's a lens or not.
Speaker A:If this episode made you think or made you want to discuss it with a friend, share it with them and if you'd like to send in your favourite sound you can do that@thesoundsession.uk until next time Soundmaker.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening.
